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Revwilly

Besides our social principles,where does it say that everyone has the right to work and a living wage? Who has granted this right? How had decided it is a right? Where does it say it is the governments responsibility to provide the creation of jobs? I don't ask this cynically, I've just never been able to figure out from where these rights come and who is empowered to give them. Perhaps you can help me understand.

Dean Snyder

Some ideas:

"Man [is] a rational animal, endowed by nature with rights and with an innate sense of justice." --Thomas Jefferson

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men ..." --Declaration of Independence

Other ideas?

Revwilly

But where does it state specifically we have a right to work and the right to a living wage? Where does it say the government should provide jobs? Are these not things we have, as a church decided are rights and responsibilities?

I believe we all have the opportunity and ability to work. I do not believe it is the governments responsibility to create jobs. At best it can only create a climate in which jobs can be created.

One of our weaknesses we have as a church is that we have too often looked to government to do things we should be doing as a church and could do if we were a vital and healthy church serving the world as God put us here to do. I believe the churches of the world should be the ones who are primarily dealing with the issue of poverty. If all Christians tithed and gave sacrificially it could be eliminated. The church, not the government is the hope of the poor. Kirby John Caldwell, pastor of Windsor Village UMC sets the example for us.

John

I'm familiar with the Social Principles (and have even taught a Bible study on them). But I had no idea that this level of detail existed in the Book of Discipline.

Of course, before all of these massive socioeconomic changes are enacted, it will be necessary to pass a constitutional amendment to repeal a pesky obstacle.

Joel Thomas

John,

The Book of Discipline provides these things as moral imperatives. It doesn't say that all of them have to be enshrined in the law or the Constitution.

Rev. Willy,

I'm always disappointed when United Methodists don't support our Social Principles. To me, they represent the highest ideals of Christ's call to ministry.

I'd support backing away from some government programs if the churches would step up. Some people say the government needs to back off first. I disagree. Federal and state governments provided massive food and shelter programs during the Great Depression precisely becaue the Church as a whole failed to come to people's rescue.

Revwilly

Joel,
Certainly there should be a transistion period between gov.support and church support and yes, the church did and continues to fail. It's time for a turn around. We are having this discussion because of what Dean posted earlier about church decline. When churches grow poverty and social ills decline, or at least they should.

Josh

I found this post and discussion so interesting that I wrote about it on my blog. It's here if you want to check it out.

Tom Harrison

Suppose a church, which will remain anonymous, needs to save money. They fire the janitor and then try to get parishioners to do his work as volunteers.

Is the government now obliged to find him a job?

Josh

No. Ideally, the church should help him find a new job, or direct him to programs that will help him develop additional skills.

It is the government's responsibility to make sure that, when this man gets a new job, it pays a decent wage and provides decent working conditions. It would also be nice if the government would support churches and organizations that meet the needs of persons who are between jobs. (Maybe the ex-janitor has saved enough money that these services are not necessary; I don't know.) The Faith-Based Initiative, which was a good idea, remains underfunded.

Nancy

Let us not forget that even 15 years after the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, the unemployment rate among working-age adults with disabilities has "lowered" to a plateau-- of somewhere around 70 percent. Ongoing segregation in education instead of mainstreaming, inferior education riddled with patronizing and dependency-reinforcing attitudes, overprotection by our families, lack of transportation to and accommodations in the workplace, lack of accessible housing or supports for personal care that keep us perpetual children in our parents' homes-- all questions of justice! Spiritual questions! For no other group would an unemployment rate of 70 percent seem "normal" to the mainstream society.

John F Yeaman

One critical emphasis of the Reformation was the sanctity of work. Before only the monastic was holy, but now all productive work is good. We need to emphasize and preach that. Jesus in the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (some worked one hour, some all day) and in the Lord's Prayer daily bread he implies or suggests a day's work should provide for the needs of the worker's family for a day. Bread was more than a loaf of bread. All that our government does, our culture does is under the judgement of the One who became one of us, was a carpenter. Dr. Outler told us of talking with a parishoner who made silver spoons, asked him, what does this mean to you? The guy asked, preacher, do you like soup?
I've known cops, mechanics, etc.who found their work significant and fulfilling, while other found their work hell.

John

Josh, I think that the Faith Based Initiatives program was a terrible idea. Besides being flatly unconstitutional (again, 10th Amendment) it will inevitably lead to government regulation of churches. How long will it be before interest groups propose laws that churches receiving funding must comply with non-discrimination standards? We've already seen the Boy Scouts menaced by the ACLU for banning homosexuals and atheists. It's only a matter of time before churches dependent upon government aid are likewise threatened with legal action unless they conform their doctrinal standards with government mandates.

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