Mixed-up feelings

During a recent conversation with someone about the Lake Junaluska controversy, there was suddenly a catch in her voice and a pause. "They hate us," she said.

"They hate us," she said a second time.

I wanted to argue with her. I wanted to say they don't hate you, they just don't understand, but I didn't. Instead I tried to listen to hear what it feels like to have people be offended by your very presence somewhere.

I have very mixed feelings about this discussion that I have been a part of -- a discussion that I have helped intensify by publishing the letter distributed by the Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD) and then interviews with Mark Tooley and Troy Plummer. I worry that this discussion only increases the pain.

There are two groups of people I especially worry about. Most of all, I worry about gay and lesbian United Methodists who have struggled through to a place of self-acceptance and self-affirmation in spite of what the church in our ignorance has said about  them. I would rather they not have to read things I write or the IRD letter and some of the comments that this discussion elicits. I feel bad about being part of a discussion at all ...  as though we had the right to discuss anybody's validity.

I feel sullied by participating in a discussion full of generalities about a group of people's "sexual activities." We had made these kinds of  hurtful generalizations about other cultural and ethnic groups, and these discussions are wrong to even participate in-- we don't scrutinize other United Methodists this way -- but it also feels wrong not to challenge such generalizations.

I feel bad because the controversy over Lake Junaluska now threatens to turn a convocation where gay and lesbian United Methodists could safely worship, fellowship, and learn with other United Methodists who are trying to be welcoming  and understanding into an experience that may not feel as welcoming as it might have. Lake Junaluska represents a place of grace and community, closeness to God, and peace, for all of us. Some United Methodists are saying that the mere presence of  gay and lesbian people, and those of us seeking to help the church become more inclusive (although I doubt the presence of the rest of us is much of the problem),  will "tarnish" Lake Junaluska for them. It must be hard for gay and lesbian people to come to any conclusion other than "They hate us."

I have friends who have to escape the struggle from time to time. They go into hiding for a time for the sake of self-preservation. They try to avoid places where the acceptability of their very existence will be debated, as though they were an object, a thing,  rather than a child of God. I would not want anything I do to make the lives of these friends harder. For the rest of us this is a theoretical discussion. It is not the acceptability of our existence that is at stake. I hope folk tell us when our participation  in the struggle only makes things worse and harder. Forgive us when it does.

The other group I worry about are those United Methodists who have accepted the church's teachings about sexual orientation, and have chosen to live a heterosexual life when they suspect their orientation is otherwise.  Some  of these sisters and brothers have blessed me by sharing with me a glimpse of their struggle. It is not an easy road. This discussion makes their lives, which they are seeking to live for the sake of Christ as they understand him, more painful and difficult as well. I wish them no hurt either.

Someone like me feels the responsibility and need to speak out. Yet, this should not be about my need. It should be about liberation, understanding, and healing. When this gets to be more about our needs than these things, friends should gently tell us to keep our peace for a while.

No matter what our attitude or theological convictions are about these matters, all of us who are not gay need to remember that we are not talking about ideas, theories, and concepts but about people -- people who can hurt and despair.  I pray that my commitment to principles will never get in the way of the commandment to love my neighbor as myself. Whatever I do, I do not want to expose my gay and lesbian sisters and brothers to more pain.   

Comments

[John Wilks]

Dean,

I can certainly understand your pastoral nature driving the above comments.

At the same time, while I can understand the power of the emotions at work (I've been there back in my teens) that is not the whole story.

Folks like me are not trying to deny GLBT people their very existance. Instead, we firmly believe that God's plan for them (God's plan for me whan I was young, His plan for people like Dennis Journigan before God and many others who have experienced transformation) involves finding a deeper identity than their orientation- an identity in Christ that can transcend sexuality and even transform the inner person into something far grander than they have ever imagined.

I realize that you and I disagree about that. But please don't dismiss my position and the position of those like me as mere ignorance, as merely lacking understanding.

And don't let your emotions and empathy drive you into accepting the false dilema that we whole uphold traditional sexuality are out to destroy or nulify anyone. We simply offer an alternative vision. For those who reject our vision, full unity is of course difficult and feeling get hurt- sometimes deeply so. But don't think for a moment that those hurts don't cut both ways and that many who share my views will be just as grieved by the story of the woman you share as you. We simply do not agree with you on how best to address that pain.

[Jennifer]

Dean,

People like you keep me coming to church; you make me feel loved and welcome there.

Jennifer

[Chris]

You have personalized this discussion admirably. When words grow heated and passions are inflamed, real eloquence and sensitivity are often lost. I don’t blog much about the subject on my own site for two reasons.

First, I do not wish to close the door on pastoral ministry to anyone. A number of locals read my blog, and I have no idea who they are or with what issues they may struggle. Were they to make an appointment with me, I would take them and their needs seriously—whatever they might be. I try to avoid posting materials on my site that could lead anyone to believe otherwise.

Second, this is not an issue with which I have an obsession. While it certainly falls under Christian ethics and ultimately you and I disagree, it is difficult for me to elevate this issue in importance above an ethical discussion of, say, campus binge drinking or shady business practices. In any such conversation, some shades of grey are inevitable.

But let me admit it: I don’t much care for the suggestion that most United Methodists, including myself, are ignorant. Like you, most of us are deeply committed to living out our faith on a personal level. Like you, we believe that a commitment to Christ is a whole-life commitment. We disagree, however, on exactly how to define the Christian sexual ethic. Despite the fact that I recognize something of the complexity of human sexuality, I believe that the Church’s teachings on sexuality in general are largely correct. And as you know, these teachings affect not only homosexual persons, but heterosexual persons as well.

I vividly recall my own struggle to live as a Christian in my adolescent years. By the time it mattered, I had come to accept the idea of celibacy in singleness and fidelity in marriage and made a personal commitment to it. As anyone who has made such a commitment knows, it is neither easy to follow nor popular with one’s peers. My point is this—I did not believe then, nor do I believe now, that living out a Christian sexual ethic is easy for anyone.

Please don’t forget that some of us who seem hopelessly out of touch with the sexual revolution* have suffered mockery and ridicule for our faith-based choices. And please recognize that this mockery and ridicule often comes from other Christians who rather hastily and thoughtlessly characterize our attempts at fidelity to more traditional Christian sexual ethics as “old-fashioned,” “homophobic,” “judgmental,” or just plain “ignorant.”

*I understand the term "sexual revolution" to mean the sweeping changes in sexual mores in Western culture in the latter half of the 20th century, characterized by growing social tolerance of divorce, abortion, premarital and extramarital sex.

[Dean Snyder]

Jennifer

Thanks.

John and Chris

I used the word "ignorance" which I meant to apply to the church as a whole too loosely. I did not mean to call everyoine who disagrees with me ignorant. I believe there are persons who have thought about this and have educated themselves and come to conclusions different than mine. So I apologize if I sounded like I was calling you ignorant.

But I do believe the church as a whole has been operating out of ignorance on the m,atter of sexual orientation. How often have I heard my annual conferences debate this concern and talk about it as if "those people" were trying to invade our church -- as though gay and lesbian people were not our sons and daughter, brothers and sisters, neighbors, fellow United Methodists. It may be getting better but, swear to heaven, United Methodist clergy used to insist to me that there were no gay people in their churches or in the families of their church members. Where did we think gay folk came from? They were born only to atheists?

I was fortunate enough to have the experience of a gay man coming to me for counsel during my first appointment. Then, as I read and tried to learn more, when I mentioned sexual orientation in sermons and classes (merely acknowledging its existence), other folk came and shared with me. This only happened because someone in my first congregation chose to confide in me.

So I do think the UMC has set its policies mostly out of ignorance, although this is not to say that every United Methodist who disagrees with me is ignorant, especially not John W. and Chris.

Dean

[Douglas Asbury]

Just to give some empirical evidence of the truth of what Dean says, I contacted the United Methodist Publishing House last year asking for sales statistics on The Church Studies Homosexuality and other books related to this issue. At that time, only 28,000 student books and 6,000 leaders guides had been purchased since it was published in 1994. Even Robert Gagnon's book (pub. 2001) that supports the current denominational position had sold only 8,400 copies. And other books such as the Sample/DeLong (Loyal Opposition, 2000, 4300 copies), Dunnam/Malony (Staying the Course, 2003, 2200 copies) and Geis/Messer (Caught in the Crossfire, 1994, 9000 copies) have not sold enough even to inform the 44,854 clergy members of the UMC, let alone anywhere close to being the number needed to inform the 8.2 million lay members in the US, not to mention any of those outside the US.
Recognizing that people can increasingly get information from a growing variety of sources, including the Internet, and that publishers other than Abingdon also have offered books on this subject, this evidence still suggests to me that there is a vast ignorance among our church people - clergy and lay, conservative and progressive alike - regarding the subject of homosexuality and the growing variety of perspectives in the areas of biblical studies, theology, ethics, sociology, psychology, and law, among others that have been developed. Perhaps of greater concern, there is an enormous resistance to learning anything new that might more fully inform people and move the dialogue beyond its currently deepening polarization. There is a further unwillingness to come together to discuss our various beliefs and concerns, so that whenever General Conference comes around, it serves as a lightning rod for all the pent up frustrations on every side.
Some years ago, when I was part of an active cluster of UM churches in a rural area of Northern Illinois, our cluster sponsored a 3-session study of homosexuality using The Church Studies Homosexuality. Out of a total membership in the cluster churches of over 2400 and a total average worship attendance of over 700, only 13 people attended the first session, including 3 pastors, and only 8 came to all three sessions.
Shall we all remain in our respective levels of ignorance and refuse to challenge our parishioners to do the work necessary to move out of theirs?
For the past several years I've gone to the annual meeting of the American Academy of Religion. Last year the section on evangelical philosophy sponsored a debate on homosexuality that involved four papers being read and responded to by noted scholars in the fields of theology and ethics. As I reflect on such gatherings as this of the scholarly community and the dozens - perhaps hundreds - of books that have been published by denominational and non-denominational publishers on homosexuality and Christianity, I begin to question the wisdom of doing any more research or publishing or preaching or anything that will seek to address this issue in a fashion that I believe will please God and bring God's people closer together in love. God's people, for the most part, seem to want to stay apart in fear and hatred. Shall we leave them there, and even join them?
The witness of Elijah, whom God told of the remnant that remained to God in Israel after Elijah fled Jezebel's wrath and Ahab's troops, says a strong, "No. Don't give up. Keep on speaking in my behalf. I will use you to move the situation to a new place."
May it be so.
And thank you, Dean, for continuing to be a voice in the wilderness!

[Chris]

Douglas, I have seen you post elsewhere and appreciate your thoughtful contributions. I think it fair to say that the place of homosexuality in a Christian sexual ethic is an issue on which there is genuine disagreement, disagreement arising not solely from ignorance on either side.

I’m not sure sales figures are particularly helpful. I have read Loyal Opposition and Staying the Course, but like most books outside my field of specialty I borrowed them from a library rather than purchasing them. I intentionally try to avoid being a person with “an enormous resistance to learning anything new that might more fully inform people.”

This past week I came across a fine article in the Boston Globe Magazine, and I will admit that it is an open question in my mind how such information will influence my thinking. How do such data contribute to ethical discussions in a faith context? While I do not know the answer, I am convinced it is not a simple one. For example, I have not changed my mind on the Judeo-Christian consensus on adultery, despite the fairly compelling claims for a genetic basis for infidelity presented by evolutionary psychology.

I am grateful to you and Dean for participating in the conversation. We have so far come to differing conclusions; that does not mean I or others who share my position are obstinate, uneducated, ignorant, unenlightened, or unsophisticated. We are thoughtful people of faith who disagree, and I think it behooves us approach one another as such.

[Jennifer]

I don't know if anyone will really care, but I guess I'll say what I know and hope that you'll listen. What I need to say is that what some of you are calling "love" doesn't feel like love at all to this gay person. Are you able to hear that without feeling defensive? I hope so.

I've been the recipient of that "love" many times over the last 30 years, since I was 13, and it feels as bad as it can get, just really bad... but from what I see, most Christians don't care if I hurt or if they kill the very Spirit that's within me...they say they do care but their actions and words say otherwise. They think when I'm hurt that I'm about to "give in" and miraculously change into a heterosexual person. They try to punish the gay right out of me, but it doesn't happen. They say, "If I bite into you and break you open, then we'll see that you really have a more appealing heterosexual center." And they bite into me again and again and they're disappointed that I'm gay, and I'm left bitten and broken in two and in pain. Then they walk away shaking their heads saying that it's my fault that I'm hurt because if I wasn't gay they wouldn't have bitten into me. God puts me back together again, and then someone else bites into me again. They think they are conquering a mountain by spewing their version of ethics at me 3 times a day, forgetting that a bunch of other people are also trying to conquer that mountain of me, too, also spewing their version of ethics three times a day and then there's the news of what politians say to win votes that bites into me, too. Do you understand how that feels for people to constantly be telling you that they think your life is a sin? It isn't love. If you were in my body, walking around in my shoes, you could recognize that it isn't love. How many times must I get whacked over the head with this "love" before you understand that you're hurting me?

People get that adrenaline rush standing on that soapbox proving that they're right; they feel like they're as noble as Ghandi because they had the nerve to stand up to or witness to the homosexual. They feel like they're Jesus himself, the face of God, as they attack that homosexual who just happened to wander by. It bewilders me why you can't see it isn't love and see that I don't whack you over the head and say your life is wrong. Maybe I love you more than you love me. I wouldn't dare criticize you as God's creation. And by golly they can use that rulebook of a Bible like a seasoned lawyer. Why, you'd think they were Johnny Cochran. But they make me into someone more threatening than I am in order to live out their dreams of changing the world. Why, you'd think I was 10 feet tall and as massive as Goliath and that they're little David ready to knock me down by burying a stone in my forehead. I think they have to convince themselves that I'm powerful enough to shake up their world in order to feel justified for attacking me or lovingly telling me I'm sin, in order to feel like God loves them best, that they are the only ones privvy to the mind and Spirit and Word of God. Well, what they say to me and how they act tells me more about them than it does about God. I finally realized that, but some of us don't know how to separate Christians from God. Before I did, I thought that God was just as rejecting as these people were. I thought that God couldn't see anything but my gayness, that I was definitely going to hell and God didn't care because I was so bad. I know now that God sees the whole me, even if some Christians only see the one thing.

If you're one of the ones I'm talking about, I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that people get offended by your having your very own personal vision for other people's lives, while calling it God's vision. It's very arrogant to say to people that you think you could do a better job of living their lives than they could. Well, you can't do a better job because you have no idea what it's like to be ostracized by 60 people at a time just for existing. You've never been told that you're not allowed to look someone in the face; because you're gay, you have to turn your head away or else be punished. And it has nothing to do with sex because these things happened before I even had sex. You can't walk a mile in my shoes because you were born privileged as heterosexual people with a church on every corner that you'd be welcome in any time. Even knowing that you are welcome anywhere, in any church, you still have to grind that fact into my bones over and over again..."Ha ha ha... we know how to win God's pleasure and we can do it just by being born this way," you say, though you don't realize what you're saying or how your words come across. I hear the "We don't want you here" that's embedded in your love, especially as you reject me from membership (yes, it did happen) in church because you've judged me not to be concerned with sin because I'm gay and love someone, or as you are thinking of me as having "soiled" Lake Junaluska by worshipping God there or as you try to take away the very few, count-on-one hand, local churches, miles away, where I feel welcomed and loved. Some rural gay people don't even have one church they can attend and some of you guys are out there trying to take that away, trying to make it negative numbers. Do you think it's loving to act so hatefully?

And don't tell me it's God's vision you're spouting or God's love that you're claiming to show; I'm in touch with God about my own life. I pray just like you do, and God loves me as I am. Eating too many sweets is my problem. I'd really appreciate help with that more than anything, but that's probably not as important to most as criticizing me for who I love.

So I'm not asking for help with my gayness. The question is can you love me as I live out what I know is God's vision for my life? Can you support God's call in my life? I'm a person, not an issue and I know real love when I experience it. It tarnishes the word "love" the things that people call love. We should have more respect for the word.

If you really loved me, you would protect me from bullies and would see that I have just as much right to be here as anyone else. Are you doing that? Are you protecting gay teens in the schools who are getting bullied just like I did? Or are you afraid that it would give the impression that you accept gay people? Would you have to make sure they knew that you are against their gayness if you helped? I hope you'll put your actions where your mouths are.

God colored outside the lines to make me. And to you I might not look like much. But you have to understand that to me you sound like the older sibling standing there looking over God's shoulder as God draws up the plans for individuals, criticizing God's creation, telling God that different colors should be used or that it's wrong that God didn't stay inside the lines. It hurts me when you say that the way that I am makes me an ugly picture. You're calling me ugly. How God made me is a gift from God, my very own personal gift from God, just as it is for you. What are you telling me about me by constantly badgering me about something that I didn't cause and can't change. You're saying the world would be better off without me. The fact is, I'm already here and have gone through quality control and have God's stamp of approval through Jesus Christ my Lord, and I'm going to be here for the duration. You can wring me out again and again, but as long as there is one thread left of me it will be a rainbow-colored thread and I'll still have that tag that says, "Made by God." I'm a precious child of God, made by God; you can tell me different and say that it's love, but I'm not believing it anymore because I've experienced real love from people who do love me just as I am, as the song says. I hope you'll hear what I'm saying and I hope that you care, not for my sake because I'm OK as I am, but for those who might believe they're nothing because of what you say. It hurts to be thought of as a dangerous beast by people who are supposed to know love better than anyone else. If I'm unloveable as I am by you guys, lovers of all lovers, what does that make me? I still have to fight feelings that I'm a freak in God's eyes because of things that Christians have said. Talk about feeling self-conscious. Many Christians watch all the time just waiting for us to mess up in any little way so they can jump in and point their fingers and say "Aha! This proves it's wrong for you to be gay. Here's the proof." It doesn't feel like love. It's not love.

Thanks, and sorry about my long-windedness. I hope that you can hear what I'm saying.

Jennifer

[Chris]

Jennifer,

I do care, and I have tried my best to hear what you're saying. I want to participate in the conversation, but I'm beginning to wonder if such a conversation is really possible.

You have attributed to me motives, actions, thoughts, and words that simply are not consistent with who I am. I am sorry for the pain that others have caused you, and I am sorry that my posts have hurt you. None of the gay and lesbian members of the parishes I have served would describe their encounters with me in ways that resemble the hurtful experiences you have had.

With what are we left if dialogue cannot occur? If public discussion causes this much pain, what is the answer? I am at a loss.

[Jennifer]

I really don't think it's dialogue that most are having, and after seeing most of these conversations I don't think we'd have one here either. I've seen no "Aha" moments in these arguments-- only heatedness or utmost politeness, each getting nowhere. Most of the time it's two monologues with one person trying to find any way they can to prove the gay person is sinful and needs to be taken down, all the while saying that they themselves are sinners and that they're saying these things out of love, which they aren’t. Does it feel like love to us for someone to say that our lives and feelings have been all wrong, that our long-term relationships aren't as valid as a heterosexual marriage that has existed for 1 second, that we aren't as concerned with sin as the rest of the population (what an assumption) and thus don't deserve membership in church? I’m not sure why anyone would think that sounds like love, no matter how gently or politely it’s presented or how many Bible verses punctuate it. Lots of time the talk is spirited competition or debate to two heterosexual talkers, but they’re talking about my life with very real consequences for all the hatred spouted in the name of God. And when I join in, they don’t realize that it's not a game or debate or theoretical to me. It's my real life and as I talk to them I’m fighting for my life while they’re laid back on the couch with chips and more rights than I have, and then they wonder why I’m getting upset. After all, it’s just an issue, isn’t it? They turn me from a person into an issue. And meanwhile I’m too busy wondering if my very conservative boss will ultimately let me go, not for poor work performance at all, but because he knows I’m gay. But I haven’t seen many Christians who care about my safety or security at work. Most just seem to want to talk about my sin and bad ethics.

I’d believe the conversations are done in love if someone said, “It isn’t fair for you to feel like someone could fire you at any time for being gay. Let’s do something about that.” Then I’d be willing to believe it’s love. But most would say, “Oooh, supporting them in any way will give them more power and we don’t want them to have any power. Maybe us stepping on them all the time will make them not be gay. Maybe all that stress will change them from gay to straight." So it means that you really don’t understand the nature of gayness. Stepping on my rights isn’t going to make me not gay. The flat fact is that it’s just cruelty and un-Christian behavior, pettiness and jealousy that I see directed at me. It’s sibling rivalry for God’s attention and love. Some evidently think God’s love is limited so they have to guard every ounce of it to make sure none leaks to the gay person and if some does leak down, let's make sure we put that disclaimer on it. I wish people understood that putting us down and standing on our shoulders while we're down to make themselves feel like they’re up on a pedestal doesn’t count as really being up on one. All it really is is stepping on someone while they're down.

I have a partner of 15 years and we expect to be together for the rest of our lives. I don't have the assurance after working as hard as any heterosexual in a couple that my partner will be financially secure because we don't have legal rights. I often wonder if she’ll be able to keep the stuff that I want her to have. A couple of 18-year-old strangers-to-each-other who got drunk and woke up married in Las Vegas have more rights from the moment they said their slurred "I do's" than I do with my partner after 15 years of being together through sickness and health. How do you think that makes me feel? Does that seem like love? And even with them both drunk their marriage is automatically considered as having the sanctity that everyone speaks of only when a gay person is around wanting equality. Other times the only “holy” I hear about in heterosexual marriage is about holes in the husband's dirty underwear that he dropped in the floor and didn’t pick up as his wife complains about him to other women she talks to.

I don't even know if my partner will get to be by my side when I'm on my deathbed, even if she's right there at the hospital and we both want her to be there. Don’t you know that’s important to me? Is that what you guys see as love, keeping my partner from being by my side when I’m sick? or not doing anything about it while saying I'm sin? Is that love? These are the kinds of things that make words from some Christians awfully cheap. Some think they're entitled to more for their tax dollars than I am. I'm a citizen, too, who works hard every day and pays more than my share of taxes. If my partner gets cancer really bad and needs my help, I won’t get to help her or hold her head over the toilet when she’s sick because gay relationships, even long-term ones, aren’t protected under FMLA. And if she then dies, will I get to go to her funeral? Will I be allowed to bury her? Bereavement leave isn’t extended to gay couples even if we’ve been together for 50 years. I’ll probably be sitting at work the next day bent in two with tears streaming down my face, but will anyone really care? People will just say it wasn’t a “real” relationship because it was a gay one...this after we’ve been through everything together and have shared everything. All that most Christians want to do is to punish us with the law while excusing it by saying we're not as good or holy.

So I don't believe any talk of love from you guys anymore unless it's accompanied by love in action, and I so rarely see that as far as we’re concerned. In fact, as I think about it, I don't know that I've ever seen someone who thinks being gay is sinful take a stand to protect me or stand up in my defense for anything. Do you write more letters to editors about my supposedly bad ethics and sin? or do you write letters asking employers to respect that even gay people need bereavement to mourn the passing of someone they've loved for a very long time? Are your letters to the editor begging people to be kinder to gay teens in schools? Is your love talk on my behalf making people want to include me? Or is it making them want to exclude me? Does your love talk make my daily life easier… or harder? I can tell you that it makes my life harder when you go around saying I’m sinful and have bad ethics.

I guess I have a different measuring stick for measuring love and care. Love isn’t just a word to me. You can’t take the word “love” and dress it up with gentleness and politeness and put an “in Jesus's name” after it to make it real. I believe it’s love only when I see it's real.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about all this, but I wish you could know how it feels for people to be constantly making some sort of stand against you, calling it love, when you don't even know them and they don't know you. I run into one of these discussions every time I turn around either as I flip the channels on television or stroll through the blogs and it isn’t fun and it’s very intrusive to be hit in the face with it every single day. If I back off and try to avoid the conversations, I worry that I’m not being responsible about my own life and I miss other news, but if I get into a discussion, inevitably no one listens and I get beaten up or else I watch as someone else gets beaten up. No matter how beaten up I get, I’m still here and I’m still gay….. now just gay and beaten up in God’s name. But most Christians don't think of how we feel very often. They're like bulls in china shops, hard-headedly thinking they're right as they point out the verses in the Bible, not realizing the damage that they do in the name of God. And other Christians may say the same things gently, but gentle doesn’t make it love.

Chris, my words aren't directed at you and weren't really directed at you before, only the line of thought about caring, but this is directed to everyone who talks of love but shows action that says otherwise. If you guys really loved us you’d open your eyes to see and when you did you’d think it was unfair the inequality between us and you and you'd feel bad and would want to say something about that instead of talking about our “sin” and “bad ethics” to anyone who will listen.

I think I’ve said enough. I hope you guys have a good day.

Jennifer

[Chris]

Jennifer, I am truly sorry for the pain you have experienced from Christians. I spoke only of ethics, not of "bad ethics" or "good ethics." I did not use the word "sin."

We have some disagreement (likely less than you think). But please don't pre-judge me. Don't superimpose the negative figures you have encountered previously on me. I am as much a unique individual as you, and it is unfair for you to assume otherwise. I know you say your remarks aren't directed at me, but I can't figure out who else in this thread they'd be directed toward.

It is true that I subscribe to a traditional Christian sexual ethic. It does not follow from that, however, that I think you're a terrible person, that I think your partnership is less real than that of a couple married for 15 years, that I think you should be discriminated against, or that I think you should be barred from enjoying such basic priviledges as hospital visitation, powers of attorney, beneficiary rights, etc. You don't know what I think or how I behave unless I tell you. Please don't assume that you do.

[Jennifer]

I promise that I'm not assuming anything about you, Chris, and I mean that as sincerely as I said it in my comment. That's why I used words like "most" or "some" when talking about Christians. I've met some very fine Christians who do show love, and I don't assume that you're not one of them. My comments come after seeing a slew of hateful Lake Junaluska comments in a variety of Methodist places and after comments from Christians calling it love, saying that they don't think I should be a member of this denomination that I love. It's like getting attacked from every side with some very hurtful things said. We never know when something is going to cause a fury of hatred against us. Everything's fine, fine, fine and then bam! I never would have guessed that Lake Junaluska would upset anyone. I'm glad you at least know what I'm talking about and I'm grateful that you can see the inequality. I'm sorry for any assumptions that you feel I made about you in particular. You're right that I do make the assumption that if someone thinks it's sin that they aren't going to stand up and support equality for me; it's just that I've never met anyone like that in my life.

[Dean Snyder]

Jennifer and Chris

You may not think you are having an aha moment but I am finding this a very powerful conversation. Thanks for letting us listen in. Your vulnerability is amazing.

I, of course, am more convinced than ever that the Holy Spirit is working out within people like Jennifer and her partner what it means to be gay and Christian, and that the church -- even those who find it difficult to be fully affirming-- ought, at the very least, to take a wait and see attitude.
Dean